New Pope Intolerant?

As Benedict XVI takes his new post as Pope, the skeptics, cynics, and truth seekers come out. First up, the Pope's involvement as a member of Hitler Youth. The Pope immediately said that he was coerced into membership. I wonder how Rajan and/or LHM feel about the quote below taken from this article.

He argued that Muslim Turkey did not belong in Christian Europe and issued a document saying that Catholicism was the only true religion, questioning the validity of other religions, even Christian ones, even as his Pope John Paul II was trying to reach out to other faiths.

Now if the above statement was made by a Muslim leader, imagine the hue and cry about intolerance. Double standard at it's finest. I guess it's ok to be intolerant as long as you are Christian.

UPDATE: Was the Cardinal (at the time) talking about the economic and/or political consequences of Turkey joining the EU?

Previously, Cardinal Ratzinger had stated that Turkey's membership of the 25-nation bloc would cause a ''loss of wealth and culture'': He advises Muslim Turkey to seek alliance with other Islamic nations rather than the traditionally Christian EU

For the record, one of the flock of the Roman Catholic Church has a definition of intolerance as follows.

in·tol·er·ant: Not tolerant, especially:
a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
c. Unable or unwilling to endure or support: intolerant of interruptions; a community intolerant of crime.

Seems that the above statement would fall under b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.
No?

Comments

[Mei]

Intolerance isn't bound by religion or race. Neither is questioning the validity of other religions.

Having said that, one person's words doesn't represent the true sentiment of everyone.

[lilian]

Hi Jamil
In discussions like these, I am glad I have childlike innocence. I see things in very simple perspective. I am a Catholic Christian for only 2 years and embrace my Islam brothers and sisters as one. After all, we are worshipping the one God.

[Gary W Bush]

On April 24, 2005 02:19 AM, Lilian wrote:

>In discussions like these, I am glad I have childlike
>innocence. I see things in very simple perspective. I
>am a Catholic Christian for only 2 years and embrace
>my Islam brothers and sisters as one. After all, we
>are worshipping the one God

I find it so amazing that you who claim to have been a
Catholic Christian for 2 years do not know simple fact
that nowhere does the Cathecism of the Catholic Church
(CCC) say Islamic people worship the same God as
Christian people, since Christian God is Trinity and
Islamic God is not.

On top of that the claim that Islamic people are the
brothers and sisters of Christian people is so false.
The term "brothers" and "sisters" refer to those who
practise the Christian faith. Islamic people may be
the "neighbour" or "enemy" of Christian people but it
all depends on who. If it is the Islamic people in PAS,
they are obviously "enemy" but the Islamic people in
UMNO are obviously friend, so they are "neighbour".

I challenge anyone to disprove me. You can refute me either by email, on this blog, or on the Usenet newsgroup, soc.religion.christian, or even at the forum, Answering-Islam,

[Gary W Bush]

Sorry, but I left out the link. The Answering-Islam forum can be reached at this web site link: www.answering-islam.org

[LHM]

Normally, I do my best to avoid any discussions of a religious or political nature on Malaysian blogs or blogs directed to a major Malaysian/Muslim readership and for good reason.

Any true open philosophical discussions with the majority of Malaysians from my experience that concern either theology or politics have a tendency to degenerate into arguements or flame wars.

Unfortunately, they usually end with the Malaysian/Muslim threatening and/or calling for the death of their adversary in the debate.

I have had my "run in" so to speak with Mr. Jeff Ooi already here.

http://www.jeffooi.com/MT3/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=4031

Mr. Jeff Ooi, Malaysia's very own self-proclaimed champion of of free speech who has an entire web page on his blog where he states that the majority of his Malaysian readership are not able to handle free-speech.

Oh, sorry to be long-winded there. I almost forgot... we were talking about "intolerance" right? /smirk

Sorry mut I must have missed the memo. Since when is tolerance a virtue? You seem disappointed that the new Pope is a Catholic.

With regards to Turkey being admitted into the EU, I am equally opposed and believe the learned Pope is correct in his statement.

Neither am I a fanboi of multiculturism or diversity. The concepts of multiculturism and diversity are in actuality nothing more than a pernicious form of relativism that culminates ironically into a new form of intolerance. An intolerance to both freedom and democracy. Multiculturism and diversity thrive here in Malaysia and Singapore at the expense of freedom and liberty in what is often times refered to in politically correct terms now days as "Authoritative Democracy" or as Lee Kwan Yew calls it "Asian Style Democracy", in 1939 it was known for what it really was - Fascism.

Have a nice day ;-)

[lilian]

Mr Bush,
I shall go on with my rose-tinted glass and live happily than be grown up, too smart and have so much angst. You have a good day, Mr Bush!

[Jamil]

lillian....pay no attention to the ppl who never directly answer the point. seems to be a hint of guilt there.

for the readers who were confused by the definition of intolerance in my post, GARY BUSH is EXHIBIT A.

LHM, even though a little more clever than Gary Bush, is EXHIBIT B.

[Fabian]

He's the Catholic Pope. Of course he's intolerant. Whatever views he may have about Muslims, I can assure you that his disappointment and disapproval rain down doubly on people like me, the lapsed Catholics who once "saw the light" but have now strayed from the flock.

[Gary W Bush]

Jamil, you claim I never directly answer the point
because I have some "guilt". This is baseless
statement from you. You twisted facts as usual
just like your PAS brothers in Malaysia would
like to do.

Your definition of intolerance, which you
gave above, I will re-produce it below:

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.
b. Opposed to the inclusion or participation of those different from oneself, especially those of a different racial, ethnic, or social background.

You claim I am EXHIBIT A and LHM is EXHIBIT B.
This shows you are twisting facts as usual in
my post, for even if Christians were to believe
their religion is the only true and Muslims were
to believe their religion is only true one does
not amount to intolerance. USA is a free market
economy and converting Muslims is part of free
market just as Microsoft would want to convert
a Linux user to use its Microsoft Windows. Its
not intolerance; its freedom.

Now, EXHIBIT A refers to a person who wants
to ban differences in opinion and only his
opinion should be aired, and all other peoples
opinion must be banned. This is like in IRAN,
SUDAN, or MALAYSIA, where apostate muslims are
murdered by the government.

However, you must surely notice in Netherland,
which is ruled by the Christian Democrats, which believes Christianity is the only true religion
yet they uphold the concept of free market
economy, the right for any religion (even Jews
and Muslims) to freely "sell" their product to
those not of their religion who have the right
to "buy" or not that product.

Seeking to convert a Muslim is not intolerance
at all as we have the right as permitted in
free speech under the U.S. Constitution to
keep attacking the founder of Islam, Muhammad
and the book he directed his henchmen to write,
Quran.

Now, what I consider as "intolerance" is denying
other religions the right to freely propagate
their faith to other religions. Hindus, Jews, Christians, Sikhs and Muslims must have equal
right to prosetylize one another. This is true
freedom as seen in the U.S.

[Gary W Bush]

On April 24, 2005 10:21 AM, lilian wrote:
>Mr Bush,
I am not Mr. Bush but just Mr Gary.

>I shall go on with my rose-tinted glass
>and live happily than be grown up, too
>smart and have so much angst.

I note that you have extreme liberal
views that are heretical. Nobody can
have a worldview if they look through
rose-tinted glasses. Moreover if you
like Peter Pan, you surely do not
want to be grown up but I have been
told that not only the Christian
religion but also the Buddhist and
Jewish religions want their adherents
to act like "grown ups" by being smart
that is having intelligence.

I am surprised you use this phrase,
"so much angst". Do you know what
angst means? The word angst is derived
from a German word meaning fear. So,
do you _really_ have so much fear of
your Muslim masters in Malaysia that
you want to be a slave to them?

I may live here in Malaysia but I am
not afraid nor do I fear Muslims and
which is why I vote for DAP and openly
bash PAS in public just to tell them
that I am anti-PAS and therefore
anti-Islam but not anti-Muslim.

>You have a good day, Mr Bush!

I always believe I can have a good day
if PAS does not rule Malaysia but I
will be having bad days if PAS rules
Malaysia.

[LHM]

Jamil,

Im here because of your invitation. I would have hope you might have responded and answered my question ~

"Since when is tolerance a virtue?"

Instead of hearing, "I respect your views" and then hearing your retort, you simply dismissed 'out of hand' both Mr. Bush's reply and my own. Were you seriously interested in an honest debate and discussion on the matter or simply an opportunity to use this forum to impose your beliefs on others?

In all honesty, I find it extreemly ironic that you would start a thread on intolerance and then proceed to show little tolerance for the expression of any ideas contrary to your own.

/bow

Now, its your serve sir. ;-)

[Jamil]

GWB/LHM,

sorry that you feel i am intolerant. as you can see ive done nothing to stifle the debate here. but lets look at what we have so far. Gary goes OT and attacks another commenter. LHM asks if Intolerance is a Virtue. im sorry for being so simple minded but I dont feel this is advancing the debate.

[LHM]

Perhaps if you would just answer the question?

Is tolerance a virtue?

[Jamil]

Tolerance is a virtue. If you'd be so kind, please proceed.

By the way, thanks for linking me but it's very obvious from your comment "a blog run by an American Muslim over here in Malaysia who has apparently declared a Jihad on Knowledge. God help us all." that you have no real advanced knowledge on the term JIHAD.

[Gary W Bush]

Jamil, yes, I thank you for agreeing with me that tolerance is a virtue but I ask you to answer these questions :

1. Is believing Christian religion is the only true religion intolerant?

2. Is believing Muslim religion is the only true religion intolerant?

3. Is enforcing Syariah on Muslims as done in Malaysia and Iran intolerant? Examples are laws on apostacy, laws of alcohol consumption, etc.

And, one more thing to add is you, Jamil, say LHM has no real knowledge on the term Jihad but I disagree with you. I would advise you to read the article on the web site Answering-Islam will explain in depth full details of the term "jihad" and "qital" which are both used for evil purposes.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/sword.htm

After you read that article completely, you will know the usage of the words "jihad" and "qital". While these words are normally used for violent and bloody wars waged by muslims to kill the kaafir, it can be also propaganda wars to spread evil lies, deceit, dishonesty to destroy kaafirs like what the PAS party in Malaysia is doing.

Finally before I end this post, I will reproduce your words in your post: "a blog run by an American Muslim over here in Malaysia who has apparently declared a Jihad on Knowledge". I notice your Jihad on knowledge is mainly in knowledge is those knowledge on how to best lie the kaafir so you can destroy us. Is that true, Jamil? Do you really vote for PAS or UMNO in the Malaysian general election? I know you do, which discredits you completely. If you are sincere on equality of religions, you would vote for DAP (http://www.dapmalaysia.net) as it advocates a Secular and Socialist Malaysia and opposes all forms of Islamic State, be it UMNO's Islam Hadhari or PAS' version of Taliban Islam.

[Jamil]

Gary,

Do you actually read my posts or do you just scan through for words that automatically put you on the defensive? Namely Muslim, Syariah, Islam, etc. The quote you provided "a blog run by an American Muslim over here in Malaysia who has apparently declared a Jihad on Knowledge" is not mine. It is LHM. So much for careful observation and clarity.

Your Quote: Is that true, Jamil? Do you really vote for PAS or UMNO in the Malaysian general election? I know you do, which discredits you completely.

Thank you for the accusations. You seem to think you know me. You don't. If you would've read LHM's quote which I provided, you could infer that I AM NOT MELAYU. I AM NOT CHINESE. I AM NOT INDIAN. I AM A WHITE, ORANG PUTIH, MAT SALLEH (Hence the subtitle) FROM AMERICAN WHO BY THE WAY IS A MUSLIM.

So if I wanted to play tit for tat with you, that lack observation on your part "discredits you completely."

As for questions 1 and 2. When did I say that believing your religion is the only one is intolerant? Please read my post again. Included is the quote about Muslim Turkey and how they shouldn't be allowed into the EU. Please see above definition of intolerance and explain to me how that statement is not intolerant. Don't pick and choose what you want to argue.

Spare me the quoting of sites like Answering Islam. For every website you can produce that there is only one meaning for JIHAD. I can produce several that say different. It does no one any good. Please refer to what Islamic Scholars say about Jihad. Then you will see that what I was alluding to in the title of this blogs is Knowledge Jihad aka Struggle for Knowledge. Not Holy War against Knowledge.

I have to say that usually you at least come at me with a little more thought and clarity on the issues but tonight you seem to be swinging at everything hoping you land one punch. Have you been drinking?

[LHM]

Jamil,

I don't see tolerance as a virtue at all, and I have explained why in the following:

The Sophistry of "Tolerance"

http://laotze.blogspot.com/2005/05/sophistry-of-tolerance-its-both.html

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